MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST:
At 12 noon on Saturday, January 17, Abigail Spanberger will be sworn in as governor of Virginia. In our current era of division, when it can feel hard to get people to agree on anything - and that is before you mention politics - Spanberger won by a double-digit margin. She'll be the first woman to lead the commonwealth, the first mom, and the first Virginia governor to have served as a CIA officer. She joins me now from her transition offices in Virginia. Governor-elect Spanberger, welcome.
ABIGAIL SPANBERGER: Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.
KELLY: So the last time I interviewed you - I just went and looked - was 2021. Joe Biden was in the White House. You and your fellow Democrats controlled the House...
SPANBERGER: Yeah.
KELLY: ...Thin margin, but you were in the majority. Y'all were still struggling to advance his agenda, and I remember asking you a pretty blunt question - what do Democrats stand for? How would you answer that question today?
SPANBERGER: I'm curious to know how I answered it back then, but I know that...
KELLY: Back then, you told me (laughter) - I'm paraphrasing - but you said Democrats need to quit arguing on TV. And then you said, and we need...
SPANBERGER: Oh, yeah, that sounds like me (laughter).
KELLY: ...We need to do a better job of saying, this is what we're working toward.
SPANBERGER: Yeah, so...
KELLY: What are you working toward in 2025?
SPANBERGER: What I'm working towards - I mean, I think this is the most central thing. What I'm working towards is delivering a Virginia that is ultimately more affordable. It's contending with the issues that matter to voters, to Virginians, to small businesses, to small business owners, to family farmers, to communities across our commonwealth. You know, we - like so many places across the country - are impacted by, you know, worry about affordability, housing supply that is causing costs to go up for families to rent a home, to buy a home. Here in Virginia, the cost of buying a house has gone up 18% over the last four years, 14% over the last four years to rent a home. And that has a real impact.
And so what I am for is contending with and making progress on - and, you know, frankly, also being honest with voters and with Virginians - we cannot fix every problem. There's no kind of one single lever to pull. If there were, we would have pulled it a while ago. But we need someone who's relentless in bringing together members of our state legislature to pass bills that are going to move us in the right direction, to having an administration where every secretariat is focused on, you know, improving the lives of Virginians and creating opportunity and ultimately, day in and day out, focusing on delivering.
KELLY: Just to push you on this, and I know you don't...
SPANBERGER: Sure.
KELLY: ...Speak for the Democratic Party, but you have served at senior levels in the federal - in Washington and now about to be in Virginia. Has your party figured out what you stand for, as opposed to standing against a lot of President Trump's agenda?
SPANBERGER: So this is where I will say, whether people have figured it out or not doesn't matter as much as whether the voters - the people of the country or of individual states - think that we have, right? I mean, I'm a Democrat 'cause I think our policies are better at getting at the issues that matter most to people, helping people, creating opportunity, but...
KELLY: But you're speaking to a messaging challenge.
SPANBERGER: Yeah. And so if people don't realize it, don't feel it, don't know it, across the country, then I think it's up to every person in elected office or seeking elected office to make clear what they are for. And I do think that there is a lot of room for improvement in many places across the country, without question.
KELLY: I mentioned, Abigail Spanberger, you're the first woman to be elected governor of Virginia. For years, every time I interview a woman who's the first woman to hold a position, I ask about it, and I always think I so look forward to when I get to stop asking this question because we've reached a...
SPANBERGER: Yeah.
KELLY: ...Day when it's utterly normal for women to be amply represented in positions of leadership. Are we close? How far off is that day?
SPANBERGER: I think it's closer than it was. It's closer than it was two months ago, I'll say that.
KELLY: (Laughter) Right.
SPANBERGER: You know? And I think it's every bit of progress because every example of leadership and of what, you know, different styles can be, who can be in positions of leadership, every example that, you know, that the next generation sees is helpful. And, you know, I would note not only certainly was I elected but we elected a woman as our lieutenant governor. We flipped 13 seats in the General Assembly. The majority of them were also women candidates who flipped those seats.
And so I think what's exciting for me is to hear from people who say things like, you know, I brought my daughter here. I brought my granddaughter here so that they can see you speak. Or, you know, yesterday, there was a teenage girl who said, oh, my goodness, my grandpa loves you. I was at an event. And I think that we are much, much closer, and we get ever closer to having, you know, those very boring and very normal interviews that you look forward to having with just yet another woman governor...
KELLY: Yet another woman governor...
SPANBERGER: ...Or yet another...
KELLY: ...How boring is that?
SPANBERGER: ...Woman.
KELLY: Do you spend...
SPANBERGER: Exactly.
KELLY: ...Much time thinking about it?
SPANBERGER: I actually find it really, really heavy to think about. So the short answer is, I don't spend that much time thinking about it because then it leads me to the next place of, well, then how do I ensure that everything I do is setting a good example? From, of course, the good policies I put forth, but the way I give a speech, to the way I present myself, to the way I, you know, speak about every aspect of what led me here, or who I am, or what I want to achieve.
But I do recognize the example and the permission structure. There was a group of teenagers I saw yesterday, which is why I have multiple teenage girls on my mind, and another one said to me, she said, I'm going to follow in your footsteps, and I'm going to be president, she said. And so I looked at her. I said, OK, well, remind me your name. And she said her name, and I said, OK, well, I'll remember that for when I'm bubbling you in...
KELLY: (Laughter).
SPANBERGER: ...On my presidential ballot, right?
KELLY: Yeah.
SPANBERGER: And I don't know that she would have had that same conversation with, you know, a man who happened to be the governor-elect.
KELLY: Abigail Spanberger - Democrat, former member of Congress, former CIA officer and now governor-elect of Virginia - thank you.
SPANBERGER: Thank you for having me.
KELLY: And you can hear our full conversation on next week's episode of our national security podcast Sources & Methods. We'll include that other piece of her resume, the ex-CIA piece.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR CONTENT)
SPANBERGER: I loved it. I was a case officer. I was undercover my whole time at the agency. I later got my employment declassified.
KELLY: That episode with governor-elect Spanberger drops on Monday. You'll find it wherever you get your podcasts. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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