Former New Mexico State Representative and Author, Bill McCamley discussed cultural barriers and solutions for men's mental health and propensity for suicide with Liz Liano. Here is a transcript of their conversation:
Bill McCamley:
There's a lot of issues with men ourselves, and I think I should probably start with some of the statistics, because I don't think a lot of folks understand how bad this is. 40% of men basically admit to being depressed at least sometime in the recent
past. 44%haven'thad at least a fleeting thought of suicide in the last two weeks. The stat that really worries me about young men specifically, under the age of 25, depending on the study, between 15 and 28% of young men do not have a close friend. And so a lot of men are hurting out there. They are lonely, they are frustrated because of a lot of issues, the economy, housing, where relationships are right now and how hard those are to navigate for a lot of men. And that translates to a lot of anger and a lot of sadness. And that's made worse by these traditional tropes about men, how a strong man deals with everything themselves. They never ask for help. They never express emotion other than anger. That's fine. That's encouraged. Everything else, get bottled up unless you're at a sporting event.
Bill McCamley:
And so as we look at this topic, and before we go on as well, I should say two things. Number one, I wrote a book on how we can be men in the 21st century without being *****. It's actually available right now. And through the process of writing that, I ended up getting a job where I'm working with the New Mexico Building Trades Council. So all of the electricians, plumbers, insulators, painters, all the union guys on mental health, suicide prevention, and substance abuse. And that's important. because that trade, when you combine it with mining, has the highest suicide rate and the highest death by overdose rate in the country by profession. And frankly, the numbers aren't close. 96% men in that profession. Now, it's also a really hard profession in a lot of other ways, but the fact that there are majority dudes there has a part to play in those numbers. Men are 3 1/2 times more likely than women in America to kill themselves. they are between two and three times more likely to die by overdose on drugs. And these numbers are real, and they show that we're having issues.
Bill McCamley:
And so we've got to attack this head-on. And so some of the... strategies that are being used out there and that frankly I use as well are #1, getting guys to admit that they have an issue. And a lot of men think that any kind of depression or stressor anxiety, that's weak, that's effeminate. And so many straight men think that being compared to a woman is weak and that really creates issues for a lot of guys moving forward. So what do I tell them? I tell them, look, Tough men deal with tough things by taking their issues head on. I'm a fairly tough guy. I'm 6 foot, 200 pounds. I know how to box. I played hockey goalie and soccer goalie for 20 years. I had a suicide attempt. During COVID, when I was the Secretary of Labor for the state, I'm not going to go into the details, but it was super hard. It was super emotionally draining. My relationship didn't make it. Now, I didn't do it, but I sure wanted to for a lot of reasons.
Bill McCamley:
And when I open up with other men about this, it gives them permission to do so. And a lot of strong, quote-unquote, athletes do this as well. Dak Prescott, who is the quarterback for the Dallas Cowboys, his brother died by suicide a few years ago. And when he went on some media outlets saying, hey, I'm depressed, people called him weak. And I'm like, dude, that guy's an NFL quarterback. He's one of the least quote-unquote weak people out there. But he opened up about it, which is good. Another guy I really like to talk about is Jay Glaser, who is a reporter for Fox NFL Sunday. And he is also a former MMA fighter. And he has an MMA GM out in LA. And he tells people that come in because he goes through mental health issues as well. He goes through depression. He has a book about it. He does podcasts. He talks to NFL locker rooms when bad things happen. Unfortunately, there was a Dallas Cowboys lineman who killed himself last season. And Glazer's the guy that goes to a lot of these locker rooms and says, guys, you got to open up to your team around you. That's what teams do. But he also says, for people that come into my MMA gym, and let's say you have an injured knee, are we going to ignore that? No. We're going to take that on. We're going to figure out what's wrong, and we're going to fix it so you can get back into the ring and fight again. Dealing with this stuff is no different than that.
Bill McCamley:
And so a lot of these issues with men's mental health, attacking it directly is really reliant upon fighting these tropes that men have had for centuries that a man doesn't express emotion, a man doesn't ask for help, a man deals with everything himself. I'm Irish Catholic, a man downs a fill of whiskey as medicine, right? And that's some of the big issues that we have to really address as men to do better on this issue. I think the other big, and kind of Moving on from this topic, the other big thing we have todo is find spaces for men and boys to feel comfortable talking with one another. the YMCA, the Young Men's Christians Association, and the Boy Scouts were both formed in the early 1900s because there was these roving packs of boys in these cities. And the city leaders were like, this is a problem. And so they helped form these organizations to give spaces for these boys to congregate together, have good role models, have a structure for how to grow up and learn how to be men. Well, neither of those groups are for men or boys anymore. The YMCA went co-rec, I think, back in the 50s or 60s. And the Boy Scouts aren't the Boy Scouts anymore. It's Scouting BSA, and there were 200,000 girls in the Boy Scouts. And a lot of men and boys would say, well, they're still Girl Scouts. and there's still a YWCA, and there's still all these other places for women to gather, and we don't have that. So finding ways of creating those spaces for boys and men to socialize together is going to be a real critical part of how we help fix this thing moving forward.
Liz Liano:
What do you feel like are some of the larger solutions that are going to propel men's wellness in the future?
Bill McCamley:
Role models has got to be #1. 76% of public school teachers are women, and almost all of the men are in high school. And so it's very common for a boy not to see a male role model at school, and if, frankly, they don't have a father at home, that makes it even worse, until they may get to high school where they get a football coach. So finding ways of getting more male role models for these boys as they're growing up to help provide that example of what it is to be a man is really important. So finding places and role models for men and young boys as we grow up is going to be a very, very critical part of how in the future we deal with this. But we also have to, guys have our own responsibilities. We have to be better at talking to each other, which is one of the reasons I wrote this book and I go around talking to these guys. We have to be better at giving permission to each other to open up emotionally and ask for help.
Liz Liano:
What would you say to maybe one man listening who is on the fence or feeling really apprehensive about reaching out for support, maybe due to the view of masculinity in society today?
Bill McCamley:
I started going to get therapy, well, soon after my suicide attempt. It's been off and on, but I've been seeing the same therapist now for a year and a half. I am a happier, healthier person, and I am much easier to be around than I was before I started getting help and figuring out ways of doing work to improve myself. So I would say to that guy, it's worth it. It's worth it to take the risk. People do want to help you. Your friends want to help you. There are professionals out there. 988 is the suicide number. If anyone's on the ledge right there. Give them a call. It is free. It is anonymous. Talk to somebody. You won't regret it.
To explore mental health resources, see the links below:
988 is the suicide hotline.
Man Therapy is a man-centered resource around mental health.
The American Foundation for Suicide Prevention has a page on mental health resources for people in construction here.
For more information on Bill McCamley's book see the links below:
Amazon
