AYESHA RASCOE, HOST:
After the Hamas-led attacks of October 7, 2023, Israel vowed to destroy the Palestinian militant group. Two years on, Hamas is diminished but still exists. Hamas has said it will give up control of Gaza, but its surviving leaders are trying to figure out what role the group might play. Abu Bakr Bashir is a Palestinian journalist who lived and worked in Gaza, reporting for NPR and other international media outlets. Since 2019, he's been based in the United Kingdom. Abu Bakr Bashir joins us now. Welcome to the program.
ABU BAKR BASHIR: Thank you.
RASCOE: You've been in touch with Hamas officials throughout the Gaza war. What remains of Hamas after this war?
BASHIR: Well, Israel killed most of Hamas' political leaders and military commanders. However, some leaders have survived. Members of Hamas politburo live abroad. One of the main ones is Khalil al-Hayya, who survived the Israeli strikes on Doha last September that killed his son. He has been leading the Hamas team for negotiations from his base in Qatar. He signed on the Trump ceasefire plan a month ago. They have been working on putting together what is left of Hamas political and military wings to try to breathe life back into the movement.
RASCOE: So how are they moving forward?
BASHIR: Gaza is divided now. Roughly half of it is under Israeli military control. The other half is where a weakened Hamas remains. But they are facing rival clans and militias, some backed by Israel, that are eager to confront them. That is where Hamas is trying to consolidate its control. So right after the ceasefire, Hamas started carrying out executions of rival groups, clans and militias. But a Hamas security source in Gaza told me that they received direct orders to stop these executions because of the public anger and concern about their image internationally. The Hamas security source I asked acknowledged that some newly recruited security officers lack interrogation training. And I should note that all the Hamas security officers that NPR spoke with asked not to be named because they were not authorized to speak to the media.
RASCOE: Israel and the U.S. have said that Hamas can play no role in Gaza's future governance. Will Hamas abide by that?
BASHIR: Hamas has agreed to be out of the government and play no political role in Gaza. Hamas believes it can go back to playing the role it did before it took power in Gaza almost 20 years ago. That role was more about providing charity, welfare and education services to Palestinians. That is where they historically gained popularity. But they also carried out many attacks on Israelis, and Israel wants them gone altogether.
One major shift is that the U.S., for the first time ever, is actually meeting with Hamas. Walid Kilani, Hamas' spokesperson in Lebanon, told me that Hamas officials have met U.S. officials at least three times in recent months, including Steve Witkoff, who is President Trump's envoy. Even though the U.S. wants Hamas to give up its weapons and its control of Gaza, Hamas interpreted these meetings as recognition that the Americans see a role for them in Gaza's future. This means Hamas' ideology will have a safe environment to grow again.
RASCOE: So what is that ideology?
BASHIR: Although the U.S. and Israel designate Hamas as a terrorist group, the militants see themselves as freedom fighters who will never surrender. They believe that a person who dies fighting the Israeli occupation inspires the new generation, while a person who surrenders kills the idea itself. You see this playing out now in Gaza. There are Hamas militants underground in tunnels in an area where Israeli soldiers are in control. The U.S. is trying to negotiate with Israel to let their militants leave alive in exchange for them giving up their weapons. But I was speaking to a Hamas security official in Gaza who said the militants prefer death to surrender.
RASCOE: How do most Palestinians in Gaza feel about Hamas?
BASHIR: After Hamas took over Gaza in 2007, Israel imposed a strict blockade of the territory. People blamed Hamas for the harsh living conditions that followed, but Hamas ruled Gaza with an iron fist and did not tolerate any dissent against them. Since October 7, there has been huge criticism, and people blame Hamas for launching the attacks on Israel because it did not protect Palestinian civilians from the Israeli retaliation. However, today many Palestinians I have spoken to believe that if Hamas survives this war, they will probably remain with them for a long time. So people are more cautious about criticizing them, and none wanted to be cited by name. But a Hamas security official recently told me hundreds of new recruits have joined the movement. He said almost everyone in Gaza wants revenge against Israel. In other words, the poverty and devastation caused by the war could push many towards such radical groups in what would be a continuing vicious circle.
RASCOE: That's reporter Abu Bakr Bashir. Thank you so much.
BASHIR: Thank you.
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