MICHEL MARTIN, BYLINE: People far beyond the music world have been riveted by the trial of hip-hop superstar Sean Combs - also known as Diddy - who's been charged with serious crimes, including sex trafficking, stemming mainly from his yearslong relationship with former protege Cassie Ventura. Ventura has testified that she was forced to participate in degrading sexual encounters and faced beatings and other abuse when she tried to resist. Combs has pleaded not guilty, with his lawyers and some public supporters arguing that while the relationship may have been unorthodox, toxic and even violent, it was all consensual, and Combs did not commit any crimes.
We wanted to talk about that last part with Leslie Morgan Steiner. She's the author of The New York Times best-selling memoir "Crazy Love" about her experience as a survivor of domestic violence. She has almost 5 million views of her TED Talk on that subject, and she's with us now. Leslie Morgan Steiner, thanks so much for joining us once again.
LESLIE MORGAN STEINER: Thank you, Michel.
MARTIN: I wanted to know what struck you as you learned about this case.
STEINER: The first thing that struck me, as a domestic violence survivor and advocate, is that Sean Combs is an extreme example of a male perpetrator of violence against women. And we don't understand violence against women very well in our culture. What Cassie Ventura and other women went through is much more what I went through, which is that we fell in love with a dangerous man. And in Cassie's case, Sean Combs was a billionaire. And she is a young singer just starting out, and he has power over her financially. In addition to that, he fed her drugs, allegedly. You know, the relationship lasted over 10 years. But within a really short period of time, it was clear that, given his willingness to use all of the tools at his disposal, he was able to dominate and control her life.
MARTIN: You don't kind of fit the profile of what people think a victim of domestic violence is because, you know, you are a person who's very accomplished in your own right. And similarly, I think there are some people who don't understand why somebody as pretty as a Cassie Ventura, as talented as a Cassie Ventura, would get mired in a relationship that was as abusive as she testifies that it was. So could you talk about that?
STEINER: I think this is the most difficult thing for people who've never been in an abusive relationship to understand - is how anybody, who could arguably just walk away at any moment, stays and stays again - in Cassie Ventura's case, for years. And I stayed for years, too, and I had a degree from Harvard. I was earning an MBA from Wharton. I had the support of my family, which Cassie also had. And it's a real cocktail of power and control and trauma bonding.
And these men, including - Sean Combs, despite the heinous acts that he allegedly has committed and people have testified to, was also, alternatively, very charming and very supportive of Cassie Ventura. And when you mix love, violence, trauma and support, it becomes incredibly confusing for the victim. And this is why I stayed. You know, my ex-husband held loaded guns to my head. He strangled me. He beat me over many years. And sometimes, you know, the morning after a beating, he would smile and tell me I was beautiful and that I was going to be a great writer one day and - picking out names for our children. I was the woman of his dreams, and it's - it does something to you very powerful psychologically.
MARTIN: One of the ways the relationship between Combs and Ventura became public, or that the nature of it became public, was a security camera footage from a hotel where Cassie Ventura was clearly trying to leave and that Sean Combs came running out and hit her, kicked her and dragged her back to this room. OK? There was testimony during the trial that he paid a very large sum of money to try to keep this tape private. It ultimately became public. But one of the other things that became clear in this trial is that a lot of other people saw it. And so I wanted to ask you about that. Why is it that they didn't seem to help? They were scared for her, but nobody did anything about it. And I wondered if the same thing happened to you. Did people know what was going on with you? Did anybody try to help you?
STEINER: In my case, most people didn't know I was being abused, and I didn't want people to know that because I knew that my ex-husband would get in trouble for doing it. I was very much his protector in a obtuse, psychological way. And part of that is what is - seems to be going on with Cassie Ventura - is that, you know, here's a man who in so many ways was a hero in her life, and she didn't want to expose him.
In addition to the regular dynamics of abuse, you have to layer on Sean Combs' immense wealth and power in an industry - the music industry - where there are very ambitious people who feel like they will ruin their own potential careers if they expose him. And the video that almost everybody has seen - it's a 2016 hotel video that was leaked by CNN in 2024. It's her literally trying to leave. It answers that question - why don't abuse victims leave? She tried to leave, and he dragged her back. That video was proof of what Cassie Ventura was alleging. And that kind of proof is what every abuse victim wants and so few of us get. So she was finally believed.
MARTIN: There are those who will just object to your characterization of her as a victim. There are those who have said - and, you know, including some - you know, one or two public figures, but also, there are members of the public who've sort of communicated this - that they don't think she's a victim. They think she's a willing participant in a very unhealthy relationship. So to people who think that, what would you say?
STEINER: I would say that they're partially right - that the tricky thing with understanding abuse is that the victims themselves seem as if they are willing participants. And Cassie Ventura was getting a lot of really powerful positives from Sean Combs - love, attention, support of her career, celebrity. And I think the question that everybody has to ask is, does that mean that he had the right to abuse her? And I would say, no.
MARTIN: And for those who might think that Cassie Ventura's story has nothing to do with them, what might you say?
STEINER: I would say that every time we hear about somebody being abused, instead of just dismissing them - to stop and think about your own relationship history - your wife, your daughter, your son, your mother, the people who you work with, everybody who you know, because I promise you, abuse is so widespread that you know somebody who is an abuse victim right now - and to just have more compassion. The most important thing that any victim of abuse needs is to be believed. It's a simple thing, but it's actually pretty hard to do - is to say, I believe the victim in this case. I believe Cassie Ventura. And if you're still having trouble, please go watch that 2024 CNN video of her being beaten - and to just know that what happened to her behind closed doors was a thousand times worse than what we actually saw on that video.
MARTIN: That's author Leslie Morgan Steiner. She's the author of "Crazy Love," as well as other books. Leslie Morgan Steiner, thanks so much for joining us.
STEINER: Thank you so much, Michel.
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